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Jul 15, 2026
Why Short Films Don't Break Through | Kim Adelman
Why Short Films Don't Break Through | Kim Adelman
00:00
1:04:57
Transcript
0:00
Welcome to Between Frames, a conversation series from May Films. I'm your host, Anthony Ortiz. Not every story is remembered. Sometimes the smallest choices determine whether a film is simply watched or never forgotten.
0:17
Today, I'm joined by acclaimed author, award-winning filmmaker, and UCLA Extension instructor, Kim Adelman. Kim has produced over 19 short films that played over 150 film festivals worldwide, including Sundance.
0:35
Together, we explore one of the biggest questions filmmakers ask themselves: Why do so many short films never break through?
0:44
From storytelling, to festivals, and the choices that separate memorable films from forgettable ones. This conversation offers an honest look at what it really takes. Now, let's get Between Frames.
1:02
Kim, thank you so much for being here on Between Frames. Uh, we really appreciate your time. You know, we know you're very busy, but this means a lot to us.
1:10
Well, I always enjoy talking to you, so I know we're gonna have a good time today. Yeah, definitely.
1:15
Uh, you've done so much, you know, written books and produced films and, uh, you know, if you had to sum it up, you know, to, to everything, you know, like, what, what would it be?
1:27
Like, what does your career mean to you? [laughs] Ooh, we're starting off with the big things, aren't we? [laughs] Well, I, I do do a lot of things. I, I, uh, teach filmmaking.
1:39
I've produced films, and I've written a book about filmmaking. Uh, in terms of the festival world, I have, uh, been a judge at a lot of film festivals. I have helped program a film festival.
1:50
Um, and I spend a lot of time thinking about short films. So I'm somebody... Sometimes it's like people have been like, "Oh, she's just the queen of short films," or, "She's the expert of short films."
1:59
So I'm willing to sum myself up if you had to put a little tag underneath it. [laughs] Expert on short films. [laughs] I like that, the queen of short films. That's brilliant.
2:08
You know, like, uh, like how we've talked about before, you know, there's so many films that get made every year, you know, thousands get submitted to festivals.
2:17
What do you think separates a lot of films from the ones that get noticed, find momentum and traction and, uh, build an audience, as opposed to the ones that, you know, they might be good films, but they don't get noticed as much?
2:31
So, uh, once again, because I've spent a lot of time teaching, I'm gonna step us back a little bit.
2:35
And one of the things I always tell my students is anybody who's self-funding a film project, whether it's a short or a feature, you gotta think of yourself as a studio.
2:45
And so because you're making this thing and nobody else is gonna tell you what to do. And that's a lovely thing because later in life when you get hired by other people who are funding, they tell you what to do. Mm.
2:56
So when you are the studio, there's no wrong choices, right? You get to choose it all, and you have to take responsibility for what you choose, but nobody's pushing you in one direction or another.
3:06
So often when I'm teaching or I'm consulting or I'm producing, I will try to push you in a certain way, but I'll always say, you need to think about you are in charge. You decide what you wanna do.
3:15
I might try to push you in a certain direction, but ultimately, this is your chance to do whatever you wanna do.
3:21
So when I'm gonna talk to you about various things, and I'll be saying like, you know, one of my biggest things is people's short films are too long.
3:28
People always feel like they need to make like a 30-minute long short film to impress people or to show that they're ready to make a feature film or television, or that they just, they don't see a lot of short films, so in their mind that's what a short film should be, like 30 minutes long.
3:41
And in reality, that long a film does nothing for you. It costs a lot of money. It gives you more chances to fail in terms of not having enough money or, uh, you know, people to help you to make something that long.
3:54
Uh, 'cause the longer your film is, the more expensive it tends to be.
3:58
Uh, and then more importantly, festivals don't wanna show a film that's 30 minutes long because they just only have s- time, they only have so much time.
4:06
And to program something that's 30 minutes long versus t- three 10-minute long films, they'd rather program three 10-minute long films and have three people get to have the festival experience versus one 30-minute long film.
4:19
So, but again, you are the studio. If this is your dream and you have to make this 30-minute long film, there are many films that are, everything the filmmakers wanted them to be at 30 minutes.
4:30
So they were happy with it, you know? And sometimes, you know, your school demands that it's gonna be that long, too.
4:35
And as much as you don't wanna do it, that's the demand that you have to do, so you're gonna have to do it, and it's gonna have to be that long.
4:41
So you really have to make your own decisions as to what, why you're doing it and, and justify it to yourself that it's worthwhile. So, you know, when we say, "Well, why aren't you getting attention?"
4:52
My number one quest- If somebody comes to me, which often happens, like, "I don't know why I'm not getting festival attention at all," my number one question is always how long is your film? Mm.
5:01
And usually that is the problem. It's like it's 18 minutes long. Um, and also in the how long is your film issue, so many people do credits wrong.
5:10
They do like three minutes of credits at the beginning 'cause they're used to seeing feature films, and that's how feature films do it with, you know, starring Anthony, starring Kim, written and directed by Anthony and Kim, and just, you know, eats up all this time.
5:23
Well, with shorts, you gotta go, jump right in and start telling your story. We don't have time for these long credits. Similarly, at the end of the film, they'll do like three-minute long credits or- Yeah...
5:34
I've had filmmakers say to me, "Oh, well, that's how long the song goes, so I stretched the credits." [laughs] Oh. [laughs] So no- Yeah... because that counts against your running time, you know? If you- Yeah...
5:49
here I'm saying to you do a, a shorter film, and you've already put five minutes in song just credits. Yeah. So that's another big fault that I think s- a lot of short filmmakers don't understand.
5:59
Um- And you know as a programmer, when you're putting these back to back to back, the audience doesn't want to sit through three minutes of short, of credits to get to the next film, you know? Yeah.
6:11
It's like you're not thinking that we're gonna be showing, uh, uh, if you get a program of short films in a block, let's say you're showing like maybe seven short films, that's seven times the audience has to sit through credits, so.
6:23
Yeah. Uh, 100%, you know, like a lot of the films that stand out to us when we're, uh, working on the, uh, Santa Fe Springs Film Festival is the films that are more contained and shorter that stand out.
6:38
Um, and like you said, they're easier to program, you know? It's... And it, you could get more films in there. And then the same thing with the credits, you know. Like, I've seen films
6:49
that, um, had a long runtime, but then once I actually watched it, the film was, uh, like not nearly as long, and it was just because of the credits was like two minutes, three minutes.
7:01
And, uh, yeah, at a film festival it could like, it could get kind of like, you know, um,
7:08
it's just kind of like, you know, 'cause the film ends, and everyone's excited, clapping, but then everyone just sits there for a few minutes just staring at the screen. So not clapping for the credits.
7:17
[laughs] Yeah, like if, uh, you know, like some people might feel like, "Oh, well if I don't have like everybody's name up there for a decent amount of time I'm not giving everybody the proper recognition," but it's like, no, not really.
7:31
I mean, you could get... So what do you feel like is a better solution for the credit thing, as opposed to doing the long scroll? You just gotta go fast, you know, and put as much up on the screen as possible.
7:43
And, you know, some people do Kickstarter campaigns or, you know, crowdfunding, and they need to put thanks on the screen, 'cause they promised that. But again, just go super, super fast.
7:51
And I would, as a rule of thumb, like no longer than 90 seconds, and 90 seconds is really pushing it, you know? But if you get it down to a minute or whatever.
8:00
And you know, the other thing is, this sounds so stupid that I'm, the very first thing I'm talking to you about is length and credits.
8:05
Nothing about the actual short film itself and the story, which is the most important thing, obviously. But these are short films. That is one of the things that defines them, [laughs] versus a feature- Yeah...
8:15
on television. It is short. So, you know, yes, I wanna talk to you more about actual, um, storylines and things like that.
8:22
But in the big overall picture, if you ask anybody who has ever watched a lot of short films, they will tell you the biggest problem is length. So that's the overarching.
8:33
I won't dwell on it forever, because I do wanna talk obviously more about creative aspects of it too. But I think it's important to say that right away.
8:41
I, I 100% agree, you know, because a lot of it has to do with your mindset when you're, when you're getting into this, how you're gonna strategize and make your film stand out, that these are other, these are things that we underestimate, things we're not thinking of when we're making our films.
8:56
Um, like you have a great chapter in your, in your book, Making it Big in Shorts, uh, which I have, uh, right over here, actually. Um, here we go. Oh, look, it's you, it's you. Yeah. I have it back here. [laughs] Yeah.
9:09
Awesome book. Uh, everyone should read it. Uh, one of the chapters is, uh, Think Like a Short Filmmaker.
9:16
You know, indeed in this, these points that we, that, that you just made is exactly that mindset, things you gotta think about that's going to bring your f- your, uh, film run to its fullest potential.
9:29
And you know, and why I say that too is because our whole lives we've watched feature films and we've watched television, so we've internalized those.
9:36
And we know, we can watch a movie and we totally can feel like when the first act is breaking, when the third act is breaking, when we're heading to the ending of the film.
9:44
We know, you know, who the villain is and all this kind of stuff. We've seen it so often that we've just internalized those rhythms.
9:51
Same thing with TV, you know, we totally understand the, the rhythm of a television show. But we haven't watched short films our whole lives, so we don't internalize a lot of this information.
10:00
And so my second biggest advice to everybody is you should watch a lot of short films. You know, YouTube, filled with short films. There's a great site called Short of the Week, filled with short films.
10:11
Um, there's a YouTube channel called Omeleto, filled with short films.
10:16
Um, watching the Academy-nominated short films, which are truthfully quite often longer, because the Academy loves longer films, and we can talk about that a little later. Mm. But, um, you know, see them.
10:27
S- get a sense of what people are doing with short films.
10:30
But what makes short films so exciting, and again, I come from features and shorts, and people are always like, um, "Don't you want to spend more time in features?" And I don't.
10:38
I like short films for many reasons, but one of the reasons I like them best is anything can happen in a short film.
10:44
Because we're all, so many different kinds of people are making short films with all different kinds of backgrounds, and because they're their own studios and nobody is stopping them from telling these stories, so many different kinds of stories are told.
10:56
So many things you've never expected to see in your life show up on a short film. We can do experiments with technology, because we're making our films fast and right away.
11:04
We're not making something that's gonna be released a year from now or two years from now, you know? So it's always, this is where the exciting filmmaking is happening, with short films.
11:12
And there's always stories about these people that break through because they've made the short film, and then everyone realizes, oh, this person's talented, and then they get to go on to make something else.
11:21
But it's because they've showcased how unique and special their voice is, and they've made things that are true to their own voice in a short film. And they can, 'cause nobody's stopping them.
11:31
And you can make a short f- now I feel like I'm on a soapbox. And you can make a short film. But you can make a short film- [laughs]... on your iPhone for no money.
11:38
You can r- make your short film in your expensive film school the way film school teaches you. You can make a short films with your buddies in your backyard. You can make a short film in your car.
11:48
You know, there's so many different ways you can make a short film at all different kind of skill levels and all kinds of, uh, budget levels.
11:54
And somebody who's never t- picked up a camera before can make something more amazing than somebody who's been through like six years of film school.
12:02
It's just there's no rules, there's no statement, there's no like, "Oh, you will be successful, uh, because of this or that," or whatever. Anything, anything can happen in short film, and how exciting is that, really?
12:12
It's the wild, wild west. Wow. Yeah, it, it really opens up a lot of possibilities when you really see what you can do when you push your vision, you know?
12:23
And it doesn't have to be super elaborate with a lot of storylines like a feature. It could be more contained vision, and that communicates you're a sharp storyteller, but you also have a voice, a creative vision.
12:37
You're able to execute it.
12:39
And like you said, going out and going online or going to film festivals just to watch short films is extremely, uh, valuable and inspiring, and it might spark something in you to, like, go make your film, you know?
12:54
Yeah. That's definitely happened with me.
12:56
When I teach short filmmaking, I make them, as homework, watch short films for this exact reason, and it's quite often they see things they hate, and that's great too because it makes you realize, like, "Hey, that film got made," and it was poorly executed, whatever.
13:08
[laughs] You know you can do better. Yep. You know? Well, nothing's- Definitely... stopping you from making it. Um, and truly nothing is stopping you from making it.
13:17
So that, I think, i- a- a miracle of the, uh, camera on your ph- iPhone, you know? Not to say iPhone specifically, but your camera phone. Um, such a miracle.
13:26
They can make really quality stuff on that now, where in the old, old days, you had to go to film school because that's where you could get your hands on cameras. Mm.
13:34
And now we all have a camera, and we all have editing systems, you know? So, uh, it is, that I think is super amazing. The negative thing, of course, about all this is
13:45
so many people are making films now, and, you know, you can used to be like, "Put it up on YouTube and people will discover it," but that's not the case anymore because there's, you know, millions and millions of things on YouTube nowadays.
13:56
Uh, and you're competing against, you know, uh, for eyeballs on many different things. Um, try to get into a film festival. Uh, you mentioned, like, thousands get made.
14:04
The, the statistic we always use is the Sundance Film Festival because they're public with their numbers, and, you know, most student, most filmmakers would love to be able to get into Sundance.
14:13
So the, I'm cheating, down looking at a sheet of paper here. This year submitted to the Sundance Film Festival, 11,480 short films. Wow. Yeah. So, you know, that's great that all those people made those short films.
14:26
Um, but the reality is there's no...
14:29
I mean, the Sundance programmers will actually watch all of those, but most of us are never gonna be able to watch all of, that many short films, and that's just, they just keep on getting made and made and made and made.
14:37
So that's why I think you have to really kind of define what success is to yourself and to your own studio. To me, success is you made a film, you know?
14:46
And don't, you and I both know tons of people who talk about making films forever and then just never actually do it. Mm-hmm.
14:51
So crossing that bridge from saying, "I want to be a filmmaker," to actually making a film is huge, and that alone, you know? Yeah. You know, w- we'll throw a parade for you. [laughs] But just know that- [laughs] Yeah...
15:05
a lot, there's a lot of parades being thrown because [laughs] you're not the only person to do it. Um- Yeah... so, you know, it used to be, like, supply and demand, right?
15:12
There wasn't so much supply, and there was more demand. Now we have way too much supply and not enough demand.
15:19
So it, just as another statistic, so when I mentioned the, you know, that number for Sundance, the number of shorts they actually played, 54. Mm.
15:27
So, you know, what are your odd- I don't get to the math for you, but those odds are not so great. [laughs] Um- Wow.
15:33
So, you know, like, i- if your dream was to get into Sundance, you know, you just keep on every year, make a new short film, try to submit it, and then hope, you know, you get better and that they get used to seeing your name and you somehow after a certain ti- amount of time really develop yourself into a filmmaker that they cannot deny.
15:50
Yeah. And you'll be one of the people to get in. Um, but it's kind of unrealistic to think, oh, yeah, I've never made a film before in my life.
15:55
I just pick up my iPhone, me and my friends are in my backyard, and yeah, I'm gonna get into Sundance. Yeah. Right. What, what's something you feel filmmakers often obsess over,
16:07
um, that may not matter as much as they think? Yeah, that's a really good question, w- because I think what you really should obsess over is making the film you wanna make, right?
16:15
Again, 'cause this is the one time you can control absolutely everything. Mm.
16:19
I think what people do wrong, um, and this is so funny because one of my students just said be ambitious is a positive thing, and I'm always negative about being ambitious. [laughs] I'm like, "Don't be too ambitious."
16:30
You know, you c- again, we've seen all these movies and TV shows, and we think we can duplicate that.
16:35
Like, oh yeah, of course, you know, I'll have a hospital scene, and I'll have a helicopter scene 'cause I see that all the time on TV. And it's like- Mm... well, how are you gonna get a hospital scene?
16:45
How are you gonna shoot a t- uh, a, a helicopter scene? It's you and your little pals on your phone, you know, in your backyard.
16:51
And the answer is, you know, find a friend who has a drone, and all of a sudden you'll feel like a helicopter or whatever. And
16:57
you can make it happen, but you're not gonna be able to compete with the level of things that we're used to seeing on TV and film without putting some real serious money into your film.
17:07
And so, you know, I, I mentioned, like, the Oscar films, like, if your dream is to get an Oscar nomination for your film, live action, go look at these and see how expensive they are and, and, you know, how expensively produced they are and think can you compete at that level.
17:22
Right. And that's just, again, talking producing.
17:24
I'm, again, circling around not talking about the actual story or, um, because people can come up with amazing stories that can overcome the fact that they were badly shot, you know, or that they're...
17:36
But the, the crystallization is there. That's a really interesting voice and an interesting film, and we forgive the fact that, you know, it was shot in a backyard or whatever.
17:46
Um, so if, if you have something really interesting to say or something really interesting to the way of shooting it that people might be interested in that way, but I, I do think truthfully the short films that resonate most with people are, um, [laughs]
18:03
I always say moving. That's the magic word I would use over and over again, that the viewer watches it and is moved in some way, which is a really hard thing to do, you know? To move- Yeah... a viewer is, is not easy.
18:14
But if they can... And, and moving could be like you just made them laugh the whole time. Um, or you made them cry, or you made them think in a different way, but you affected the viewer.
18:22
Um, so it, it takes it off the filmmaker and puts it more on the viewer, 'cause then that's how you stand out. Then the viewer's like, "Oh my God, have you seen this film? I, it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen.
18:31
It really moved me," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I, I do think if you can kind of try in your best way to connect with the audience and move the audience in some way, then that's how to be successful.
18:43
How you do that, like what's the magic of doing that, is really what you want to do and say in your story, you know? Right. What do you, what do you feel like, um,
18:55
more in terms of the process, uh, [clears throat] could be a gauge for filmmakers to ask themselves if their film is going to move an audience?
19:05
Like, could it be at script stage, or- Yeah, I think definitely at script stage. Yeah. And quite often in my class, we'll watch films that the, there's no fixing the problems, you know, in post kind of thing.
19:15
It, it, it should've been fixed in the script stage. Um, and you know, just because you've written a script or come up with an idea does not mean you need to make it. [laughs] Right.
19:23
You have to get in the studio, and like, is this gonna be worth the investment? And is this what I wanna put my time, effort, money into, and have it define me as a filmmaker?
19:31
And you know, sometimes it's maybe like, well, no, 'cause I'm not at that level yet, you know? I, I can't s- uh, do the helicopter in the hospital yet. So maybe this is not the script I should do right now.
19:40
Um, or it c- is like, yes, and I'm going to, you know, kill myself and raise money on, uh, s- you know, Kickstarter, and do everything I can to be able to make this film at the level I know it needs to be made.
19:51
Um, and then tell it, and I'm confident, because this is something I really wanna say to the world.
19:57
And when I tell people about my idea, and I think it's great to tell people about your idea before you actually shoot it, people respond really well.
20:04
You know, like, they're just like, "Oh, that's nice," and they walk away from you.
20:06
[laughs] Um, if they're really kind of interested and when you say, "Oh, I'm gonna, you know, make this short film about da, da, da, da, da," and people keep wanting to hear more about it, then I think that's a good indication for you that it's, um, um, gonna be a movie.
20:18
A- and I make my students, as an exercise, verbally tell their story to another person before they shoot it. Yeah.
20:25
What I like to do, um, sometimes, uh, as part of my writing process, but also as I'm starting a script or before I start a script, I like to first, one of the first things I do is I create a logline. Yes. Great. Yeah.
20:39
And that way, that, you know, proves to myself that I could summarize and communicate my, uh, film idea, my story idea in a very, just a few sentences max.
20:52
And then tell it to people and just kinda see how they respond to that kind of story. That's terrific. And then if all that's going well, I th- then I think I have, might have something.
21:02
And then after, you know, you actually write the script out, go back and visit that logline again, and make sure you're either true to that logline or that logline needs to adjust a little bit because it's changed versus what you've actually written on the script format.
21:15
And you'll do the same thing again once you make the film, you know? Is this logline still true to what I actually made?
21:20
Um, sometimes you can come up with a really great logline and [laughs] that's actually the film you made. Yeah. Yeah, like there's been the, there was...
21:29
Uh, I like to circle back to my logline, 'cause like, I kinda use my logline as like the mission statement.
21:34
You know, like first I figure out a story idea, and then I figure out what is my theme, and then I create a logline.
21:40
And then, and then I workshop that, and then I start working on the rest of my process, you know, beat sheets, character development.
21:48
And then write the script, and then kinda circling back to the logline as like my mission statement. That's great.
21:54
But like you never know what's gonna happen during your process, and that, certainly for me, is I discover things all the time. Like, sometimes I change up the character.
22:03
Like actually on my last script, one of my last scripts, I changed, like, the, I changed, like, the gender of the character, of one of the characters.
22:12
I just flipped it, because I was like, I just felt like it would've been more interesting. That's great.
22:16
Um, and that that didn't happen until I actually started writing and fleshing things out, and then I kinda went back and, and just sort of changed some things, made some adjustments. So.
22:29
Yeah, I, I definitely recommend all the time, like how can you make it more interesting after you've already done your first draft? And then also, how can you make it weirder?
22:37
Because that, you know, short films that you don't have to follow a straight and narrow path, and we've seen things over, you know, so many cliches. So for example, a cliche that people always tell you is, like, hit man.
22:47
You've seen a million hit man short films. Yeah. I'm sure you've seen them too. Yeah. So, like, how can you s- make that weirder so you're not just another hit man film?
22:55
How can you make it look different in a way that it'll stand out from all the other hit man films there? Yeah. How can you make it more true to you?
23:02
But definitely the weirder it is, just put a weird filter on it and see how that happens, and whether, uh, that ex- And you know, maybe you don't like it after you do that weird version.
23:12
But okay, take maybe some of it, take some of it out. Um, but you know, why not try to make it a little different and off the beaten path so it stands out? Right.
23:21
Was there ever a project in particular that, like, you had expectations for, but then you were surprised by something, whether it was the audience reaction or maybe the film came out differently than previously envisioned, or...?
23:38
Um, well, um, not necessarily. Uh, you know, I have produced now 21 short films, [laughs] uh, uh, not including some of these weird documentaries that I did when I was working at a DVD company.
23:52
Um, and usually you just never know how it's gonna turn out. You know, from f- That's, for any project there's a leap between- Yeah... you know, what's on the page to what actually comes out.
24:05
So you know, I can't say for myself specifically there's been one film that I can point out to to say, "Oh, that didn't turn out." Uh, you know, you can't control it. You, th- that's with all kind of filmmaking.
24:14
You have no idea how it's actually gonna turn out from the, the script phase to when it finishes. I will tell you, though, the two things that ruin any film: bad acting, bad sound.
24:27
So, you know, w- again, you hire the best actors you can, but maybe you can't get that performance out of them you need it to. Um,
24:35
I would, you know, on my list of things that I highly recommend people don't do, is hire animals or kids, uh, have that be part of your script, because they're both very hard to [laughs] direct and get consistent performances out of, and you can only work with them for a limited period of time.
24:49
But I say that to people all the time. They always write something with animal and kids in it, so. I know. You know, again- [laughs]... there's no rules. You are the studio, you can do whatever you want to do.
24:57
I'm just saying as a producer who's dealt with that a lot, uh, that could be problematic. [laughs] Yeah.
25:02
Hey, uh, I've ha- I have had dogs most of my life, so that's definitely inspired stories for me, but I've sort of held back because for the same reasons.
25:11
Like, it's, it might be, like, uh, complicated to work with dogs and stuff like that, so. What was- But, you know, I say that to you, and then somebody's gonna m- people have made great films with dogs, you know?
25:22
So it's like, don't let... You are the studio. I can tell you, push you again, like, "Don't do animals, don't do kids, don't shoot at night." All these things, "Don't use weapons." Um- Yeah...
25:30
all these things that I always encourage my students, but, you know, they're gonna do what they wanna do because they're a stu- their own studio.
25:35
So, you know, again, I can warn you what'll be problematic production-wise, but you have a story you wanna tell and you're gonna tell it, damn it. Yeah.
25:42
Um, just again, remember you don't have the same resources that, um, a big studio has.
25:47
So, you know, e- especially like weapons, everyone wants to write a gun in it, and it's like you don't understand all the safety protocols that go on with guns in feature films, and then look what happens. Yeah.
25:57
So how are you as a little student film, you know, going to bring guns into this, and how can you guarantee safety and- Right... you know, and you can't, you know, just be, "I'll be fine," kind of thing.
26:06
And it's like- No... no. Uh, so, uh, you know, there i- but that's you as a studio again, you know?
26:13
I will try to talk you into being a responsible studio, and you can be a moron and do whatever you want, and, you know, kill everybody [laughs] if you want to. No one's gonna stop you. Um, so you- Yeah.
26:25
But, but when you were saying about, like, what do you choose to write about and tell, um, you know, if you want to be, make horror f- you gotta think a little bit about where you wanna go in the future.
26:34
Like, if your dream is, I'm gonna forever make horror films, then you shouldn't make a short film that's a romantic comedy, you know? Yeah.
26:40
Unless you make a romantic comedy that surprisingly has some horror aspects in it. Um, it's just nobody will see you as a horror director if you don't have material that shows that you can be a horror director.
26:50
So, and if that really is your true passion, then it should kind of be leaking out of you anyway. And, you know, you should want to make a horror film, 'cause that's what you wanna do. Yeah.
26:58
But I, I find a lot of people make that mistake of they do, uh, you know, a drawing room comedy or something crazy like that when the dream is to do sci-fi. It's like, no, if your dream is to do sci-fi, here's a chance.
27:11
Finance your own sci-fi thing. Make it weird, make it unique, make it your voice. People will discover it and find it interesting and wanna talk to you about what other sci-fi projects you wanna do. Yeah.
27:21
Now, the other thing that I, I always wanna caution people too is, like, your very first, if you wanna do, like, sci-fi, your very first film you make may not set the world on fire, and it actually may be such a disaster that you just decide to bury it and say, you know, this was a...
27:33
I always tell people, shorts are a learning experience. Yeah. So, you know, th- you could mark it off as a learning experience. You learn so much from it. Now let's do another film, you know.
27:42
And at that one you might be, okay, this one I'm willing to share on YouTube.
27:46
And then you may be like, okay, I wanna do another one that I'm gonna put more money into, and I go to a lot of festivals and I see where the festivals play sci-fi, and it's gonna be my third film that I'm gonna send around on the festival circuit.
27:57
Because I've learned all these things and I'm now at a point that I'm a better filmmaker, basically, and I've honed my vision and it's a better showcase for me for my third film.
28:07
Uh, and you know, there are some people that are lucky enough that they can just keep on making shorts over and over again, and, you know, have a really nice, uh, life showing their films as short filmmakers.
28:16
They get to be creative. You know, their day job may be something that isn't being a director, you know? Their day job may be something in post-production or something like that. But they ke- get to keep on making films.
28:27
So, you know, when you define, like, what is a success, I don't think you should define a success as, I'm gonna get my film into Sundance.
28:33
Because if you define that as a success, only 54 people will be successful in a year. Right. That's not realistic. What happens to all those other 11,000 of them, you know? Yeah.
28:43
Um, if, if your dream is, I'm going to get into a festival, there are festivals that play 500 short films. So 500 people get to have that dream. Yeah.
28:50
Maybe that's a better shot, you know, into a festival that has, is accepting more films. Or more smartly, target.
28:59
Let- let's find those festivals that love sci-fi, only play sci-fi, will appreciate my vision in sci-fi, and are, will have the audience that wants to see sci-fi.
29:09
So let's apply to the sci-fi festivals, and you'll have, or genre festivals, and you'll have better success there, because you're kind of shooting right at the target, right? Yeah.
29:18
So when we measure, like, what does, like, breaking through, uh, actually mean to us, like- Yeah... what are your, what are your thoughts on that?
29:27
You know, like, 'cause sometimes it could be about, like, winning awards or getting your film into as many festivals as possible or getting your film into one of those prestigious festivals.
29:36
So, like, in this day and age, what do you feel like that, what breaking through really looks like? So again, if you think of yourself as your own studio, you need to define what breaking through means. Um,
29:49
a- as an exercise in class, I used to have the students say, like, what, let's dream super big. What's the biggest thing could ever happen to your film?
29:57
And they would say crazy things like, oh, you know, oh, I'll win an Oscar. And truthfully, you know, one person wins an Oscar each year for live action. Actually, this year two people won, or two different films won it.
30:06
But, um, but you know, that's a great, big dream, the one, I'm gonna win an Oscar for the short film. But one person said, "They're gonna build a statue to my short film."
30:13
And we all just laughed and we thought that was so great. [laughs] But in reality, Pixar built a statue to their very first short film, Luxo Jr., the lamp thing. There's an actual statue for it. Wow.
30:25
So, you know, your dream can come true. Uh, you just have to find what that dream is. And if it really is, like, I just wanna play at a festival, um, there are 10,000 film festivals.
30:36
There will be a film festival that will want to show your film. Now, you know, it might not be your dream festival, but if your dream, you know, you just have to define what that dream is.
30:46
I would hope your dream is not so much like, I wanna play a lot of festivals, but I wanna have my film seen by an audience that will be moved by the film.
30:54
Because a film, as a filmmaker, it shouldn't just be me, me, me, me, me. You know? It should be I want to communicate with people.
31:00
I want to share with them this vision that I have of this amazing story that I want them to see. It's not just, you know, scribbling in your attic on paper that's never gonna be seen. This is something...
31:11
Films are meant to be seen. And so, you know, maybe it is on YouTube, and maybe, you know, it, it amazes you that, like, 400 people saw your film on YouTube.
31:21
Well, that's more people than will see your film at a film festival. So, you know, it depends on how you define what is success or not.
31:26
But I would say to you, if you have 400 people, 400 strangers who see your film on YouTube, good job. That's really amazing. You know, and you can be like, "Well, my friend had 10,000 people see it."
31:37
It's like, yeah, that's great for them, too. You know? It's a, there's a whole spectrum of what could be great, and who's to say in three years you're not also gonna have 10,000 people seeing your film on YouTube? Yeah.
31:47
You just never know. So I really think to be happy, you have to define for yourself what it is. And if your definition is, "I want them to make a statue out of my film," [laughs]
31:56
I don't know how successful you're gonna be about that. [laughs] You may end up being ultimately depressed. But you could also build your own statue. [laughs] Sure. And then there'll be a statue for your film. Yeah.
32:06
Yeah, I always feel like it's good to aim high, as high as you can for things. Because even if you don't get to that point, you're still gonna get, you know, to some level that is gonna mean something to you.
32:20
So, you know, back to that Sundance number. You know, you'd be like, "Well, I'm not gonna sub- apply. It's that many, uh, you know, the c- the number percentage is really bad."
32:29
But, you know, it's that famous Wayne Gretzky thing of, you know, you can't, uh, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take, right? Yeah. So you gotta shoot, shoot your shot.
32:37
Wouldn't it be great if you were a Sundance filmmaker? Apply on the early, early thing, because as you know, they always have early, regular, and late submission fees.
32:45
Um, apply early so you don't put a lot of money into it, and then you might be one of the people. Yeah. You know, they always say cream rises to the top. Maybe you are the cream that rises to the top this year.
32:54
The other thing I will say to you, and this is also for awards too, you never know how close you come.
33:00
You know, like you could have been number 55, 45, or number 65, you know, and which is amazing out of that many things. And you just won't know. Yeah. And at a pr- a festival, you might have...
33:10
The jurors could have discussed your film forever, and three people could have been super passionate about your film, but four others wanted another film to win. And you'll never know that you were so close. Hmm.
33:22
So, you know, I think wear the rose-colored glasses and say, "You know what? I probably was in the 10, 10 percentages that were so close to getting into Sundance," or- Yeah...
33:30
"I'm sure the jury talked about my film forever, but c- I just didn't get the award." Wow. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
33:37
Like, you know, as we talk about like, you know, what breaking through means to us and like success with a short film, do you...
33:44
What are your thoughts on like, you know, is, is having a good story to tell, like is that enough? Yeah. I mean, you know, well,
33:53
uh, you know, 11,000 people thought, thought they had a good story to tell [laughs] to submit to Sundance. And how do you define good story, you know?
34:00
Um, a- and let's just say, just going back to that Hitman idea again, let's say out of that, you know, 50 people just did their version of a Hitman film. That doesn't mean that they're bad, you know.
34:11
It's just they're not gonna be able to show 50 thou- 50 versions of Hitman stories, you know. One is good enough. Um, and which one are they gonna show? Who knows. It could be the one that fits time-wise.
34:20
It could be the one that maybe has a famous actor attached. Um, it could be one that is a filmmaker that they've, uh, worked with before and they wanna encourage that filmmaker again.
34:29
You see, you never really know the extenuating causes of things, you know. Maybe one of the programmers loves sci-fi and leans heavy to sci-fi, so your film's getting in.
34:38
Uh, where another festival, the programmer hates sci-fi, doesn't resonate with them at all. You know, they're not gonna program it. So there's no way you can really, uh, quantitate that.
34:48
And when you say breakthrough, again, what does that mean?
34:50
Maybe, you know, you say a festival's important, but somebody gets on YouTube, and then they get hired to make a feature film that becomes a huge box office succession, a success, which has just recently happened.
34:59
Um, so, you know, maybe that was the right way to go about doing it. There's n- that's the great thing about short films and the Wild Wild West aspect of it. There's no way to say how you really break through. Yeah.
35:09
So I wish I could write for you, you know, like, "Oh, here's the recipe." [laughs] I'll re- write my book with the, "Here's the recipe, the way you can completely break through." Yeah.
35:16
But again, you as, as the fest, as the, as your own studio have to dec- decide what breakthrough means. And, and the other thing, I will just sidebar for a second. It's not cheap to do the festival, you know.
35:27
You do have to pay money to apply. Uh, it is a numbers game, you know. You can't just apply to two festivals and assume you're getting into both. Quite often, people apply to quite a few festivals.
35:37
And if you do get in, it, you know, if you're local, if you're going to a local festival such as yours and you live near there, then that's great. Uh, you get to go, you know, just drive up, park, get in.
35:48
Um, but if your film gets into, let's just say, uh, Seattle, and you live here in Los Angeles, well, of course you wanna go to Seattle to see your film, and they won't pay for a short filmmaker to fly up.
35:59
So you gotta figure out how to, you know, corral frequent flyer points and get free hotel rooms from points or something like that.
36:06
But it's gonna cost you money to go up and s- have your film shown in front of an audience. So, you know, it's not a free thing.
36:12
The other thing I will say, going backwards when I said, you know, um, bad acting and bad sound, you really gotta invest in post-production.
36:20
It, it, it, you know, and having good production value is great, but where it really shines and where you really should pump money in is, have great post-production sound and post-production color.
36:32
So then it, it leaps from a film that you made on your iPhone to a film that looks like a real film, and you can compete with films that look done in that way. Yeah. Again, that isn't necessarily cheap either.
36:44
Sometimes you have friends that are studying it and can do it for you, and sometimes you have to pay somebody to do it for you.
36:49
Um, but that really will boost your chances if you have great sound and great color on your film. Yeah, 100%. Um, what are your thoughts on, like, seeing your, your, uh, career as, like, a continuum?
37:04
Like, some people say, like, you know, you should just focus on the project that you're doing, just be immersed in that. But what about, like, you know, looking at a film and seeing it as a stepping stone?
37:14
Like, "This is gonna set me up for the next film." Like, what is your philosophy on that? Well, I would hope, you know, you wanna make films your whole entire life.
37:23
And, you know, sometimes, like I know a lot of feature filmmakers who have gone back to making shorts because the features were just stalling, you know? And it's like, "I wanna be creative. I want to be making stuff.
37:33
Screw it, I'm just gonna make my own short film again, even though I was done with short films and I've already made a feature." Um- Yeah...
37:39
you know, uh, because again, nobody's gonna stop you from making a short film, and you can be creative and do whatever you want, and the creativity can just pour out of you.
37:46
Um, so I do think, you know, you should think about where you wanna go, but I also don't think you should put such pressure on what you're doing. Like, this will be a calling card that will...
37:55
People will see it as a proof of concept, um, and I will definitely get money for my feature film.
37:59
Now, many short films are proof of concepts, and that might be the smartest use of your resources, is to make a short film that will help people visualize what your feature film is, or your TV show.
38:10
Um, and there are so many great examples of films that have done that for people. Um, so, you know, not to say that that isn't the way to go about it.
38:18
Um, the, but again, you as a student have to decide what you wanna do. And I don't think it's... I do think it's smart to kind of look ahead in the future.
38:26
As one of my exercises in class, we do a five-year plan, where do you see yourself in five years? And I have so many students who are like, "I don't like to think that way." And it's like, totally fine.
38:34
I am not gonna force you to think about five years ahead of time. Mm-hmm. But sometimes the person who says, "I wanna be winning an Academy Award in five years,"
38:44
like, okay, well let's figure out how to get you there, and you just back it out. If five years from now you see yourself on the Oscar stage, on the Academy Award stage holding an Oscar, what's the Oscar for?
38:54
All right, well then you've gotta make it the year before, whatever that is.
38:58
You know, so like if I wanna win for my student, my short film, okay, well then you've got to have made your, have your film, like, on the festival circuit the year before.
39:06
And then the year before that, you've gotta actually make that film, right?
39:09
And probably the year before that, you should be raising money to make the film as best you can so that you can put it on the festival circuit and try to get qualified for an Oscar and do Oscar campaigning, et cetera, et cetera.
39:19
So you can see the steps to get you there- Yeah... if you think ahead five years. But it doesn't mean that's gonna happen.
39:25
You could have that whole big plan, and then, you know, you meet somebody on the festival circuit who hires you to go be their director of production, and all of a sudden you find yourself working at a company as opposed to, you know, making a film.
39:35
Yeah. And maybe that's the right thing, too.
39:37
So a lot, I have so many friends who started off as directors, you know, not everyone gets to be a director for their whole entire life, [laughs] that you get a job somehow, somewhere else.
39:45
Sometimes they turn into programmers. You know, sometimes they turn into, like, you know, like, "Turns out I love editing, and the, I'm gonna be an editor." Cool.
39:54
This, this is just an entree into the world of many different jobs. And of course, you know, [laughs] not to be negative, but so many jobs are changing in this world.
40:01
Um, so, you know, and, and formats are changing and, and, which is great. It's wonderful that there's always new opportunities.
40:08
Um, but you may not, your vision for yourself in five years may not be what the film industry is like at all in five years time. Absolutely.
40:17
What is, you know, you've, you've produced so many short films and so many projects over the years in your career, what are some of your methods of, like, saving money, um, during projects, uh, so that, like during production or, that way we could put more money into post-production, sound, and festival submissions?
40:37
Yeah, I thought, I would love if more people thought that way. Because mostly what we all do is we just get ourselves through production. [laughs] Yeah.
40:44
It's like you take every single penny you've raised and, and put it into production. And you kind of need to, right? 'Cause that is a limited time period, and you want it all to show up on the screen.
40:52
But a smart person would budget towards post-production and marketing, if you wanna call it marketing, or distribution of getting it on the festival circuit, or promoting it in some way.
41:04
Um, so it would be smart if you put money into that.
41:07
And again, as I'm telling you, like post-production sound and color is so wonderful, and bump the film up so high, I'd love if you put money aside for that, you know, and just were cheaper on production so that you could really shine in post-production.
41:22
So, uh, you know, there, there's no secret to how to do this. It's literally just how much money can you raise and what can you do with that? And I do think you should be smart.
41:31
You know, like if you've written the script and you're so determined you're gonna make it, but as you look at this, you realize, and, you know, and realistically budget how it's gonna do, I can't afford to make this right now, that's why I don't think be ambitious and just jump in.
41:44
I think raise more money, or say, "This is not the project I can make right now," and come up with something else.
41:51
You know, I don't want you to fail by making something that is really not to the level that you want, you see it in. And if you wanna impress and stand out, you have to do it well, you know?
42:03
Um, and maybe fail in an interesting way, and that's great too, but I think with so much films out there, people aren't gonna really be interested in a fail in an interesting way kind of film. Right.
42:15
What if, what would you say if, or if there's anybody out there that might be stuck and not sure what to make a film about? Well, I would hope you would have a burning passion.
42:24
And actually, especially in a class, quite often I have to say to the student, "Why do you wanna make this film? What is it that you wanna say to an audience? What do you wanna say personally?"
42:34
Because it feels very generic and just like, you know, I have to write an assignment for class. [laughs] Yeah.
42:40
And I don't think that, and you should, I mean, you totally can do that, but I don't think you should do that. I think you should make something that really shows you, how unique you are.
42:48
Um, and one of the assignments we do do in class is we take a prompt, and everyone has the same exact prompt, but then we have everyone go off and make it, you know, write it out.
42:57
And everybody comes out with something different. So I don't think... And it always shows us, look, you do have a unique voice.
43:03
You know, we all had that exact same prompt, but you did a mafia story, and you did a ghost story, and you did a domestic comedy story. It, it just comes out differently because of who you are and what you wanna say.
43:16
So I don't think, you know, you hear filmmakers voices all the time, oh, this is how I make... I think it's just whatever you're really interested in doing, and what you're interested in doing may change as time goes on.
43:24
You know, something that you write when you're 18 is probably something not that you're gonna wanna make when you're 38. And that, you know- Yeah...
43:32
it's a lot of problems with film school student shorts is because they haven't led enough of a life, so a lot of it's kind of coming of age or fake stories based around movies they've seen. Yeah.
43:41
And they don't have really anything to say. [laughs] Yeah. So, you know, it's a rare 18, 19, 20-year-old who really has a burning something that they need to say, um, that needs to be conveyed to audiences of all ages.
43:52
Um- Yeah... but, you know, they gotta make films, and they gotta, you know, learn and, you know, maybe that film is not gonna be the film that turns the world on fire.
43:59
Uh, maybe they do need to wait until they're, you know, 25, until they have some more exper-
44:04
Uh, you know, they have to get a job bartending, and because of that they b- have a, a really unique experience, and they also now have a bar, a bar set that they can use because they asked their boss.
44:13
And now all of a sudden they're telling a really interesting story set in a bar based on experiences that only they have had, you know, that's unique to them.
44:20
And then all of a sudden that's a story that I think people would want to see. Yeah. What,
44:26
uh, how should filmmakers approach, like if once they have a good idea for a story and, you know, maybe, maybe their scripts are too long, or maybe their, their previous work, maybe their short films are too long, how could they,
44:40
uh, write these scripts shorter? Like, what, what, what is it, what is it about making your story shorter to, to help them stay Well, two things.
44:49
You always wanna start the story as late as possible, so it's not like, oh, now I'm waking up in bed, now I'm brushing my teeth, now I'm making breakfast, now I'm going out the door.
44:58
It's like, no, no, this film has not started yet. [laughs] When does the film actually start? Yeah. You know, this is, if this is a film about you as a bartender- Yeah... I really don't need to see all of this.
45:06
Um, a- and that's kind of 'cause again we're used to feature filmmaking where they do that kind of thing. It's like, it's character exposition, now we understand what kind of person it is by how they made breakfast.
45:15
It's like, no, your, your film is about a bartender, so let's just stay in the bar. And then you wanna get out as soon as possible. And also, I will say, I'd love if you had a great ending to your short film. So many...
45:26
A- as you... Uh, like I cannot watch Saturday Night Live because all those sketches never have a good ending, they just kind of peter out. Yeah. And with a short film, if you have a really great ending,
45:36
then, then your film will be successful. Uh, and people will remember it and talk about it better than if you just kind of like, there's no real ending and it peters out. I always say to students, like, "End with a bang.
45:46
Do something big for your ending. Have it really be something memorable and great and s- you know, unexpected." Um, ending is really important.
45:55
So back to like how do you know if it's good or not, I would have actors read it, do a table read with friends of yours, either actors or non-actors, and hear it and s- and talk to people and have them see what they say about it.
46:06
Um- Yeah... get some feedback before you actually shoot it, 'cause you're gonna get asked for feedback once you shoot it. And once you've shot it, it's quite, uh, kind of hard for us to help you get it much better.
46:13
Um, but again, always start as late as possible, end as early as possible. Another pet peeve of mine is films that have like 10 endings. It's like, that was your ending. Oh wait, we have another ending?
46:23
Oh wait, we have another ending? Oh, and we have another ending. [laughs] Yeah. Now we have three minutes of credits. It's like, actually your film was over five minutes ago, I don't know why you kept- Yeah.
46:32
So, you know, don't do multiple endings. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it, it... I, I know, like, a lot of my earlier short films were, like, uh, 15 pages, 25 pages, 35 pages, you know, just long.
46:46
And it took, it took a lot of, uh, experience to learn how to write more contained scripts. And then just having a process.
46:56
Like for me, when I didn't know what or where to start, well, I already started but I didn't know how to make my scripts better, because whenever I would read them, they would for one, be too long, and then two, I wouldn't be gripped anymore.
47:10
Uh, like some- Yeah... something would be missing. I was no longer moved, and I would just feel like, yeah, this, you know, it wasn't going anywhere. Like, I need to do, I need to figure out something. So I took,
47:21
I went to UCLA Extension and I took, um, the, uh, I think it's a class you're teaching now, developing your short film. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I took that class. Many people teach it. Yeah.
47:32
Yeah, I take, uh, that, I took that class, uh, a couple years back, and that was a- I'm glad... game changer. Like, it just- Yeah... it taught me about log lines, beat sheets. I'm so glad.
47:43
Classes like UCLA Extension, which I'll promote real quickly, but, you know, also writing groups, you know, meeting friends that, that way, and table reads also really help. Just having, you know, have a Zoom read.
47:53
Invite your friends to read it over Zoom. Um, it really does help that way. Uh, so I'm glad to hear that that was helpful to you. Uh, and again, too long, you know.
48:02
Uh, the other thing, uh, as a, you're your own student, you do whatever you wanna do. Don't let me influence you.
48:07
But when I used to review short films for IndieWire, and go to festivals and see a ton of short films, I started to notice that the magic number that worked for me, not for comedies, but kind of for dramas or serious films that had a lot of stuff they had to kind of accomplish, 12 minutes.
48:23
The running time was always around 12 minutes. And so, you know, I don't wanna turn that into a magic number, but if you're like- Yeah... 15, I'd love for you to try to shave it down more to like 12.
48:33
Um, you know, don't go from 10 to like, "Oh, I can go all the way up to 12," but just, it works. Yeah.
48:39
I, I, you know, I, it doesn't work for everybody and everything of that sort, but if you were to force me, you know, to say how long should a short film be, 12 or under. Yeah. Yeah.
48:49
Uh, and it's interesting, that number, because a lot of grants and a lot of contests, that's around the range, like 12 pages is, uh, 12 pages, 12 minutes is, like, kind of the sweet spot for a lot of things. It's funny.
49:02
I find it interesting. Now again, you go see the Oscar short films, which are extremely well-funded, um, they're all like 22 minutes long.
49:09
I mean, several of them are 12 minutes long too, but they're, you know, like this is really long. And the answer is those are kind of more films that fall into a short film that basically is a feature, you know?
49:20
It's a 22-minute feature basically. Um, you know, it's, it's not gonna be just you as a bartender or, you know, a story of a bartender in a bar. There's gonna be a lot more going on. There may be subplots.
49:30
It may be much more developed in terms of what the storyline is versus a short, you know, a true short film that is k- exploring s-
49:40
some, some short films are like scenes set in one location, 12 minutes set in the bar, you know, and that's what we're gonna do.
49:46
Some films are mini movies where, you know, we're gonna be in 20 different locations and have lots of different actors, and it basically is a mini movie.
49:53
Those mini movies tend to sometimes still be on the 12-minute mark because they have all the stuff that they're trying to achieve. Yeah. Um, and those tend to be the Oscar films are more like the mini movies.
50:03
Yeah, like one of my methods that I sorta like kinda came up with on my own was if I, if I have a script that's like, um, getting a little too long on like the first draft or something like that, what I'll do is I'll, I'll take a look at my beat sheet and I'll just divide...
50:20
Like let's say I have seven beats, um, that I'm utilizing.
50:23
I'll just divide that by the page count that I'm aiming for, and then I'll know how m- how many pages for each beat, you know, like let's say it's like a max of like two, um, like a page and a half or two pages per beat and I can't go over that, then that's kinda like helps me sorta get back into like a sweet spot and then I can start to kind of open it up again, and maybe the first beat is only like half a page, and then like maybe the second beat could be two pages and then that kind of a bit, but- If that works for you, again, that's great, and I want everyone to invent any kind of system that works for them in that way.
50:59
For me, when I look at me at beat sheets, it's always like, are you moving the story forward? And quite often you'll see two beats are the exact same thing. He doesn't do well with customers.
51:08
He doesn't do well with customers. It's like you've already done the beat that he doesn't do well with customers. Take out that second beat that he doesn't do well with customers.
51:16
Hit man, you know, he's hired, he doesn't know if he wants to kill the person. He still doesn't know if he wants to kill the person. He's debating whether he wants to kill the person.
51:23
It's like that's all the same beats, and you don't spend all that time. Do, choose which beat it's gonna be. He doesn't know if he wants to kill the person. Okay, then what happens next?
51:32
And I think, you know, what happens next is a really nice way to kind of build out your story. What happens next? What happens next? And if you're dwelling too long on something, it's like we're moving on, people.
51:41
What happens next? What happens next? Yeah. What are your thoughts on, uh, persistence, timing, and luck when it comes to building a career with short films? Oh, I like all three of those.
51:53
I think those are kind of magic words.
51:56
Uh, and of course you can't control luck, but with luck they always say like be prepared, you know, and you gotta put yourself in the arena, and then you could potentially have luck. But persistence for sure.
52:04
It's so easy to be like, "Oh, nothing happened with my short, first short film. That's it. I'm never doing anything again."
52:10
It's like if I told you on your fourth film they're going to build a statue out of it, well, then of course you'd rush through and make all four films to get there.
52:18
But I can't guarantee you you're getting a statue made out of your fourth film or you're gonna get an Oscar for your fourth film. There's no... In life, there's just no magic answer for this.
52:26
You just have to be the person who's like, "I'm gonna make films until I die, and if I hit it on four, that's great, and if I hit it on sixth- [laughs]... then that's great too." Yeah.
52:34
"Or if I never hit it, you know, I'm so happy that all these things exist that I've made." Well, we have a, uh, segment here on Between Frames called The Rewrite. Okay.
52:45
And, uh, it doesn't ac- it doesn't have to specifically pertain to writing, but, um, it's, the, the idea is like what's something in your career that you would rewrite or like what's a project that fell through or, uh, y- a pivot you had to make in your career?
53:00
Like is there anything that stands out to you, uh, throughout your journey of something you maybe would rewrite? Well,
53:06
I will say, and I don't think this is a bad thing, I, uh, have always been just like people come to me and say, "Hey, c- would you do this?" And I always just say yes.
53:16
Um, and so, you know, consequently I've kind of ping-ponged around and done a ton of different things. I mean, we could be talking about writing books. I've written four books.
53:24
You know, the, I've written, I've produced feature films, short films. I've worked at cable channels for forever. I've done so, I teach.
53:30
You know, there's so many different things, and mostly it's 'cause somebody said yes.
53:33
And I recently went back and produced my second full-length feature because a friend of mine is like, "Y- you should be making features again.
53:40
Let's do this feature together," and I said yes after years of saying no to people 'cause I'm like, "I don't want to produce for free anymore." Uh, she dragged me into producing for free. Uh, but I said yes.
53:48
You know, it was a great experience. And as a result of that, a friend of hers was like, "Could you produce my short film?" I'm like, "I'm done producing short films."
53:54
But I was like, "Oh, okay, I'll produce your short film." Um, so a lot of times I don't think it's negative to say yes. Sometimes it ping-pongs you around in places you never thought you were gonna be, but that's life.
54:04
So, you know, I could have been much more straightforward and been like, "I'm only gonna do features," and, you know, after my first feature I'm looking for another feature to produce and have 10 features under my belt.
54:14
But instead, after the first feature it was like, "Hey, do you want to produce a play?" And I was like, "Sure." "Do you want to produce a short film?" "Sure." I just tend to say... Things come my way and I say yes.
54:22
You know, like for me, that definitely helped me like in the beginning of my journey, you know?
54:26
Like when I was a, when I was a, a, a young videographer starting out, I said yes to everything because I just was hungry for experience, and I just loved doing it.
54:37
I saw that I was good at it, and I just wanted to see where I could take it, so I would say yes to everything, say yes to music video, commercial, wedding, whatever it was.
54:47
Uh- And you don't consider that a mistake, right? No, I mean, it, it really... You know, I achieved what I wanted, which was getting the experience. You know, like it wasn't even about making money or getting paid.
54:58
I just, you know, you could give me some gas money and I would've showed up and, you know, shot your, your project, and I did a ton of that in the beginning. And then like saying yes to everything.
55:09
You're like, you know, taking advantage of every opportunity and getting the networking out of it, getting the relationships and the resources, building all of that, building, um, the experience, making a strong portfolio.
55:22
It, it did get to a point where it started to, uh, not benefit me as much anymore because then I wasn't, uh, focused. I was just saying yes and stretching myself thin to a lot of different things.
55:34
So then I had to start having more of a balance and, um, you know, like seeing, you know, not stretch myself thin 'cause I'm not trying to like do too much here and, you know, everyone's journey is different, like all the timing and stuff.
55:48
So like where I'm at today, I'm super selective about what I say yes to because, you know, I have very specific goals and plans for what I'm trying to do.
55:59
And I, um, I'm already pretty busy, so it's like I, I say no to a lot of things just because I'm like, well, you know, I don't need to do that. I don't need the experience, or, you know, it's not about the money.
56:12
Um, or, you know, whatever. So like just being selective, you know, 'cause I know where I'm at with my career of what I should be focusing on.
56:22
Um, 'cause after all the experience and things I've been through, you know, I've, I've been able to get clarity on what it is I wanna do, what is I wanna focus on. So it's like sometimes,
56:32
um, it's good to say yes a lot, and then sometimes you have to kind of like evolve that whole thing.
56:38
But as a main idea overall, I think it's great for people to just say yes to a lot of things and just figure out what you like, figure out what opportunities come out of it, see who you meet, build your network, and then just take, take that as far as you can.
56:54
Uh, what I was gonna say is that, but that's how I met you, is because you were like, "I will shoot things." And the, and it was such a lovely open door, and now here we are talking, you know? Yeah.
57:04
It's like, and you, and you've, and we've done many things together because of that first time when you said, and you were open about this, "I'm happy to shoot anything for anybody."
57:13
Um, and it was great, and it was such a lovely attitude, and it pays off. So sometimes you don't know what those seeds are that you're planting by that. Mm-hmm. But you also have to protect yourself. Mm-hmm.
57:23
Because, you know, working for free, so much of the industry, and especially no-budget filmmaking, is asking people to work for free all the time. Yeah. And there is a point where it's like, but I gotta eat, you know?
57:33
Yeah. And also, you can put a lot of time to other people's work, and then look around and be like, wait, they're driving the Porsche, and they're in Hollywood, and, you know, and, uh, a mansion.
57:42
And wait, why, why am I not there too? I helped out, you know. So those people are the people who are very focused on what, me, me, me, me, me, you know? Yeah. And they get very successful that way.
57:53
So sometimes you do have to draw boundaries. But I do think you never know where those seeds you planted could grow and what they could turn into. Yeah. What do you feel are like the highs and lows of what we do?
58:06
You know, 'cause there's, there's, uh, there's ups and downs when it comes to production or projects or like, you know, comparing yourself to other people or like, uh, you know- Yeah...
58:15
festivals, you know, not getting into any festivals and not- Exactly. You know, there's a lot of jealousy of like, wait, their film got in, and their film's not better than my film, you know? You can...
58:25
Sundance now has the thing that you can watch their films digitally and during the festival. You don't have to go, and you can pay, I think it's like 65 bucks and see all the short films.
58:34
And I know filmmakers who watch it and be like, "My film that I submitted was so much better than theirs." Yeah. So, so easy, you know, to be, uh, to feel bad or judge or whatever.
58:42
But we all have, we all have our own paths. Yeah. Uh, and you never, you can't judge against other people.
58:48
And sometimes, you know, you never know what those people who are driving the Porsche may be very miserable, you know? Yeah.
58:54
But we just see the outside version of like, look, they seem to be, uh, you know, living the dream. Also, I do think creativity counts a lot.
59:02
It's super fun to be creative, and that's again where short films are so terrific because you can have an idea and toss it out.
59:08
And when I teach, we all come up with all these ideas in the classroom, and I'm always reminding them, an hour ago, none of these ideas existed.
59:16
And because we've all come up with them, and we've all shared them, we all heard them, they now exist.
59:20
And we were excited to make them, and maybe we'll take it the next step and turn those actually into films and share those with other people, and they may have lives outside of the classroom of just imagining.
59:30
But creativity's really fun. And short films, it's so much fun to make these things. Yeah. And it's fun to do, you know, weird stuff and not have to do, a lot of when you get paid for it, it's soulless, you know? Yeah.
59:42
And, and that's why a lot of people are jealous of you that you get to make a short film that's really fun.
59:47
And when you go to film festivals, people always tell you, "Oh, the short filmmakers have the most fun 'cause there's no pressure."
59:51
The feature filmmakers are there to try to get a deal, and they've invested so much money in it, and, you know, it's high stakes for them. But for short filmmakers, it's like, we're here.
1:00:00
[laughs] Show our films to people. We're just excited to be here. Where's the party? Yeah. You know? And so it's, it, it's a great time to be a short filmmaker. It's real- it's a lot of fun.
1:00:11
You know, being your own studio is a lot of fun. It's fun designing your own poster. You know, later on, they, they, they will design it for you and say, "Here's your poster."
1:00:18
And you're like, "Oh, I hate this poster so much," and, you know. But you're stuck with it 'cause you're not in charge anymore. So, you know, the, there's so much fun. There's so much creativity.
1:00:26
I hope everybody wants to make short films and just appreciates that they get to s- you know, make these little weird things and find audiences that appreciate and love them.
1:00:33
And you know, when you put it up on YouTube and people put comments saying, "I love it," you know, and, uh, "This is great, this is weird," that's so exciting too.
1:00:40
Strangers have seen your film and appreciate it and took the time to watch it and comment on it. Like, you gotta celebrate that as well. So there, there's a lot of things that are easy to not understand the value of.
1:00:51
Um, but it's huge. Yeah. There was something that, that you, uh, said in, uh, towards the end of your, your book, Making It Big in Shorts, was bad filmmakers make safe choices.
1:01:06
So could you sort of like break that down for us, like what, what that means?
1:01:10
You know, it, it's like, uh, you've done some- you've seen, you're making something you've seen before Or you're just kinda executing A, B, C, D. And, and you want kind of points for like, "Look, I made it."
1:01:21
And it's like, okay, good job. Um, but it's nothing unique or special. It doesn't say what's unique about you. Um, it's something we've seen before.
1:01:30
Uh, it is not, nothing is really different or groundbreaking or makes this worth my while seeing it. It was all just kind of safe and okay. And because we're building something, right?
1:01:39
Building a short in itself is a big deal, uh, that you've been able to make something. It's not easy, too. Um, but sometimes, you know, it's just not great, and, you know, there are...
1:01:48
But because we can all do it, some of us are just not great filmmakers, you know? A lot of the filmmakers whose films I produced never went on to continue to make other things.
1:01:57
Um, it just is, you know, you have to decide whether this is something that you're an artist in that way and want to keep on doing it.
1:02:05
Um, but yes, if you just kind of are g- paint by, painting by numbers, um, sometimes you have to paint by numbers to be a class project. It's like, fine, whatever.
1:02:13
Um, but I would hope when you're your own studio you're not interested in painting by numbers, that you really want to be, you know, making Van Goghs. Yeah. Absolutely.
1:02:23
Uh, before we wrap up, we have a, uh, a, a one last segment called, uh, Cinema Picks. Okay. If you recommend a film for us. Uh, it could be an indie film, it could be a mainstream film, or a classic film.
1:02:36
But what would you like to share with us? Well, if you don't mind, because of short filmmaking, I will pick short films. [laughs] And I will tell you, um, that, you know, I'm talking about live action.
1:02:45
I've always produced live action, but one of my favorite filmmakers of all time is an animator named Don Hertzfeldt from Austin, Texas, and he... Well, he's in Austin, Texas now. He's not from Austin.
1:02:56
Um, but he is an animator who on his own has consistently made really weird short films, um, that have done amazing on the festival circuit. And the, and he's, you know, he has a huge fan base.
1:03:08
Um, one of his earlier films that I loved, um, uh, was, um, Lily and Jim, but he's done World of Tomorrow is a film that a lot of people really like. Rejected is another film that really, really like.
1:03:21
And he has a brand-new film out right now that I'm embarrassed I can't remember the name of. It's Paper something. Um, but it's available on VOD. If you look up Don Hertzfeldt, you'll... I have not seen it yet.
1:03:31
Gotta see it, because again, I really enjoy his work. It, it, and it's on the festival circuit now, but also available on VOD. So I would recommend the works of Don Hertzfeldt. Tremendous.
1:03:41
We'll definitely check it out then. Where could, uh, the people find you if they wanna get your books or, um, you know, take one of your courses or follow your journey, see your projects?
1:03:53
Uh, I have a terrible website that's kimadelman.com that is just continu- just has, like, information. But, you know, just Google me. It'll show up. The books will show up there. The courses will show up there.
1:04:05
I, [laughs] use your Google, power of Google, and it'll all come up. [laughs] Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for being with us, Kim. This was a tremendous conversation, as always. I always enjoy talking to you.
1:04:16
And thank you for doing this podcast. I hope the people get a lot out of it. I think they do. Absolutely. Thank you. That means a lot. [upbeat music] Thank you for joining Between Frames.
1:04:25
If today's conversation resonated with you, consider sharing it with someone who might enjoy it as well.
1:04:31
Also, if you have a filmmaking question, challenge, or story you'd like to share with us, email us at
[email protected]
and we may feature it in a future episode.
1:04:43
You can find more conversations, films, and updates from Mae Films in the links below. Until next time, story first, always. [upbeat music]
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